First Nation?

topic posted Tue, January 20, 2004 - 9:30 AM by  Waypoints
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I am trying to figure out what was the first true modern nation. Does anyone know?
posted by:
Waypoints
Atlanta
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  • Re: First Nation?

    Tue, January 20, 2004 - 9:46 AM
    Please be more specific. Modern is sort of a vague term I think.
    • Re: First Nation?

      Tue, January 20, 2004 - 10:04 AM
      I am thinking 1500s. I know nationalism (identity) is older but when were the first borders drawn and an area identify itself as a nation?
      • Re: First Nation?

        Wed, January 21, 2004 - 10:33 AM
        This could be a PhD topic!

        I don't know what you mean by "modern nation". Do you mean the first time boundaries were literally drawn to define who's in and who's out? That would probably go waaay back. Or are you asking when the first modern (western-style) nation-state was formed? There's a lot of literature on that topic. I'd imagine defining that involves issues like the development of secularism, separation of church and state, end of monarchies, development of the culture concept, etc. In that case, you're probably looking at something later--maybe 1600s or 1700s?
        • Re: First Nation?

          Wed, January 21, 2004 - 5:14 PM
          I was thinking more like the nation-state. Reading Benedict Anderson's "Imagined Communites" and stuff from Anthony Smith on the origin of nations is still leaving me clueless. Perhaps there is some evidence in historical maps. Any political geographers out there?
          • Re: First Nation?

            Tue, January 27, 2004 - 1:59 AM
            What do you consider a modern nation? France is probably the earliest example if you consider as criteria the idea of a state not being mere domination by one people; but rather the formal laying out of self-government which is morally obligated to defend all peoples of the nation.

            In terms of borders? Probably as long as there has been agriculture. So thousands of years. The earliest known map of any kind (that I know of) is from 6,200 BC of a city in Turkey. More appear in places like Sumeria (around ~3,000 BC I believe).

            That doesn't mean there weren't borders before maps, or even before there was writing. You can say your land stops at that river.. or whatever landmarks you'd like to use. Even today systems like the PLSS result in legal land ownership definitions defined by words, not by maps. A TMK system like we have in Hawai'i is a different sort of animal.
            • Re: First Nation?

              Tue, January 27, 2004 - 8:58 AM
              I have been thinking about this some more. The word 'nation' comes from the Latin nasci which means to be born. We live in a world of nations but this was not always so. It seems we are born into a nation thus belonging to it. Now, nationalism itself is consider to be less than two hundred years old. Perhaps the idea that people constitute a nation emerged during the French Revolution as it was used to give purpose to the revolution. Because a nation is considered to not be ruled by a religious order or monarch. So, when did people identify certain areas no longer territories but nations? So this means that a nation is not just politically defined but also culturally. Maybe it is not possible to come up with the first nation because it has too many definitions or the term is ambiguous alone. So, could it be France if we call it the first nation-state instead of nation where a group of people in a defined area share a common culture, history, and language under the administration of a single government?





              • Re: First Nation?

                Wed, February 4, 2004 - 3:23 AM
                I think without relying on political definitions it's not possible to come up with 'the first'. Introducing culture results in a lot of issues. Consider even today 'culturally' many nations are not unified.

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